Interview: DFFB-Direktor Ben Gibson – „Der Schock des Realen“

Am 18.9.1966 wurde die Deutsche Film- und Fernsehakademie Berlin (dffb) als erste eigenständige Filmhochschule in der Bundesrepublik gegründet. Willy Brandt hielt die Eröffnungsrede. Der Gründung gingen vierjährige zähe Auseinandersetzungen um Standort und Personalien voraus. Als Direktoren-Doppelspitze traten schließlich Heinz Rathsack und Erwin Leiser an. Leiser verließ die dffb nach kurzer Zeit. Heinz Rathsack leitete die Akademie bis 1989.

Die dffb kann sich u.a. ‚rühmen‘, dass sie bei der allerersten Aufnahmeprüfung 1966 Rainer Werner Fassbinder ablehnte, dass Holger Meins dort gemeinsam mit Wolfgang Petersen studierte, und dass sie einmal von einem Direktor, Hartmut Bitomsky, geleitet wurde, der bei seinem Amtsantritt (2004) eigentlich schon seit über 30 Jahren Hausverbot hatte. Noch immer gilt sie als Deutschlands politischste Filmhochschule, sie sollte einmal „ein Bauhaus des Films“ (Heinz Rathsack) werden und professionalisierte sich schließlich unter dem Slogan „Low Budget, High Energy“ (Reinhard Hauff). Seit Anfang dieses Jahres hat sie einen neuen Direktor, den Briten Ben Gibson. Gibson hatte sich als Produzent von Autorenfilmern wie Derek Jarman oder Terence Davies einen Namen gemacht und über viele Jahre die London Film School geleitet hat. Für das Jubiläumsjahr hat er das Motto „Shock Of The Real“ erfunden.

Ben Gibson

Ben Gibson

Mit diesem Slogan fügt sich Gibson – vielleicht nicht ohne Bruch, aber das kann auch von Vorteil sein – in die Tradition der dffb ein und klingt dabei kaum anders als Gründungsdirektor Heinz Rathsack, der bereits 1973 äußerte, dass es nicht Aufgabe sei, „die herrschende Produktionspraxis bewusstlos zu reproduzieren, sondern dass diese Ausbildung Veränderungen möglich machen soll. Das Ausbildungsziel ist, die herrschende Produktionspraxis zu verändern.“

Es ist erstaunlich, wie ähnlich die Überlegungen von Ben Gibson zur Zukunft der dffb klingen. Das Interview mit Ben Gibson führten Ralph Eue und Fabian Tietke im Juli 2016 in Berlin.

Umfangreiche Informationen zur dffb, sowie Möglichkeit der Online-Sichtung von insgesamt 70 dffb-Produktionen aus den vergangenen 50 Jahren sind zu finden auf der von der Deutschen Kinemathek erarbeiteten Website.

Eine Retrospektive mit dffb-Filmen wird im Frühjahr 2017 im Berliner Kino Arsenal zu sehen sein.

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Helene Schwarz (© Helmut Herbst)

Der Gründungsdirektor der dffb, Heinz Rathsack, hat bei der Gründung der Deutsche Film- und Fernsehakademie Berlin (dffb) im September 1966 das Bauhaus als sein Vorbild genannt. In welchem Umfang sehen Sie eine solche Vision in der jetzt fünfzigjährigen Geschichte eingelöst? Und stellt das für Sie, als neuer Direktor seit Anfang dieses Jahres, der Bauhaus-Gedanke eine bleibende Referenz auch für die Zukunft dar?

Gibson: Ich weiß nicht, was die genauen Gründe für Herrn Rathsack waren, das Bauhaus heraufzubeschwören, aber tatsächlich schätze ich das Bauhaus sehr. Andererseits sehe ich an der dffb, so wie sie heute existiert, sehr wenig von dem realisiert, was das Bauhaus ausgemacht hat. Für mich besteht einer der zentralen Punkte der Bauhaus-Idee darin, dass auch die sozialen Beziehungen mitbedacht werden, wenn es darum geht, unterschiedliche intellektuelle und handwerkliche Instinkte und Kenntnisse an einem Ort zusammenzubringen. In der dffb, so wie sie sich im Moment darstellt, lebt in gewisser Weise eine aristokratische Vorstellung von Kunstproduktion fort, die darin besteht, dass einer eine künstlerische Idee hat und andere diese Idee umsetzen. Im Bauhaus ging es dagegen darum, dass jeder auch in die handwerklichen Details so sehr eingebunden ist, dass sich ein ganzheitliches Denken und Praktizieren von Handwerk und Kunst organisch einstellt. Im Bauhaus hieß es doch auch: es ist schwieriger und nützlicher eine hervorragende Teekanne zu entwickeln als ein mittelmäßiges Gemälde.

Was heißt das für eine Film- und Fernsehakademie im Jahr 2016?

Eine Filmschule ist – wenn sie eine sinnvolle Arbeit macht – kein Trainingslager für Nachwuchskräfte einer schon vorhandenen Filmbranche, sondern zielt darauf ab, diese Branche neu zu erfinden und sie zu ersetzen. Man kann das mit fortwährender Unterwanderung machen oder als substantielles Projekt. Wenn Sie sich etwa die Geschichte der Prager Filmschule (FAMU) anschauen, so haben da beide Kräfte zusammengewirkt und letztlich einen Umsturz der nationalen tschechischen Kinematographie initiiert. Im heutigen europäischen Kontext wünsche ich mir, dass sich in unserer Akademie künstlerische Persönlichkeiten entwickeln, die hinlänglich qualifiziert und gebildet sind, um als Film-Macher eine anständige Arbeit abzuliefern, die aber auch daran mittun dieses alte Argument des Widerspruchs von Kunst und Kommerz zu diskreditieren. Kürzlich hörte ich von Christoph Hochhäusler, dass er gemeinsam mit einem Vertreter von Neue Constantin auf einem Podium saß, und der Constantin-Mann sich vorstellte als jemand aus dem Stall, wo die richtigen Filme entstehen. Ich meine, die Realität hat eine solche Haltung sowieso schon widerlegt. Es ist eigentlich Kräftevergeudung, sich weiter daran abzustrampeln.

Schauen wir uns einfach an, was in diesem Jahr in Deutschland geschehen ist: als völlige Überraschung für jeden, der das filmische Geschehen in Europa und auf anderen Märkten beobachtet, taucht ein Film wie Toni Erdmann auf, der extrem auf die Autorenposition setzt, diese offensiv vermarktet und damit Erfolg hat.

Das ist aber nicht neu. Das haben andere zuvor auch schon getan und haben sich damit leider nicht durchgesetzt.

Mein biographischer und kinematographischer Hintergrund ist ja das, was einmal zum New British Cinema wurde. Regisseure wie Derek Jarman, Terence Davies oder auch Isaac Julien haben sich in ihrer Anfangszeit nie als Erneuerer auf dem Feld des britischen Films verstanden. Und umgekehrt wurden sie von Seiten der nationalen Filmindustrie als Abschaum angesehen, unbritisch oder was Sie sonst noch wollen. Es war eine fruchtbare Atmosphäre gegenseitiger Abneigung. Wenn Sie heute jemanden nach den wichtigsten britischen Filmemacher der letzten Jahrzehnte fragen, werden Sie mit Sicherheit auch die Namen Jarman, Davies und Julien hören. Diese Ironie der Geschichte gefällt mir natürlich sehr.

Ich glaube, es ist ein populäres Missverständnis an vielen Filmschulen, dass Studierende an einer Schule ankommen, und sagen: „ich weiß schon, was es bisher an deutschen oder italienischen oder britischen oder französischen Filmen gab, ist dürftig, aber jetzt komme ich …“. Abgesehen von der problematischen Selbstüberschatzung zeugt das auch von falschen Zielen.

Im Zusammenhang Ihrer Berufung als Direktor der dffb haben Sie mehrfach das Wort Konservatorium gebraucht. Was meinen Sie damit?

In meiner Vorstellung könnte die dffb so etwas wie ein Konservatorium sein, was ein ziemlich strukturierter Rahmen ist und eine wirklich umfassende Erfahrung. Das könnte das Grundstudium sein. Daran könnte ein gemeinsames Studio für Experimente und Zusammenarbeit als Hauptstudium anschließen.

Ich bin der Meinung, dass ein Regisseur, der nicht viel Zeit mit Kameralinsen und der Kunst der Kamera verbracht hat und sechs Filme pro Woche sieht und eine Menge Filme selber macht und möglicherweise scheitert, einfach keine wirkliche handwerkliche Grundlage hat, um ein guter Regisseur zu werden. Ich sehe es schlicht nicht als unsere Aufgabe an, die vagen Annahmen der Studierenden über ihre Zukunft zu pflegen und dass sie vielleicht eines nicht allzu fernen Tages Genies sein werden, wenn man sie nur ihrer Intuition folgen lässt.

Wenn an einem Konservatorium für Musik jemand sagt „Ich mag es nicht, meine linke Hand zu benutzen, ich spiele die Violine lieber so“, dann sagt doch auch jemand: „In Ordnung, aber warum machst Du das nicht, nachdem Du gelernt hast, was Du mit Deiner linken Hand gemacht hättest.“ Das ist sinnstiftender. Dieses Denken, dass wir selbstverständlich bei der Violine anwenden, nicht auch auf Film anzuwenden, ist meiner Meinung nach einfach respektlos gegenüber mehr als 100 Jahren Filmhandwerk.

1969dffb-berlin-aufnahmepru%cc%88fung-11-ulrich-gregor-kopie

Ulrich Gregor (© Helmut Herbst)

Liegt es nicht in der DNA der dffb begründet, dass solche Vorstellungen eher Widerstand hervorrufen?

Es ist das Angebot einer produktiven Reibungsfläche. Ich glaube einfach, dass man in einer Institution wie der dffb auch verpflichtet ist, der 120-jährigen Geschichte unserer Kunst und unseres Mediums Respekt zu zollen. In älteren Künsten hat das eine viel größere Selbstverständlichkeit. Es gibt Bünde, Gilden, Zünfte. Ab dem Zeitpunkt, da Sie in diesen Kreis eintreten gehören Sie dazu, erst als Novize, später als Mitglied, irgendwann als Senior.

Gibt es über solche Themen, die einerseits filmdidaktisch sind, darüber hinaus aber auch berufsständische Fragen berühren und das Feld von Tradition und Fortschritt, Kontinuität und Bruch beackern einen Austausch zwischen den Filmschulen?

Ich habe bislang an drei Filmschulen in drei Ländern (England, Australien, Deutschland) gearbeitet und vorher andere Dinge gemacht. Ich sehe mich nicht als Experten für Filmschulen, aber als ich für die Filmschule in Australien ein Arbeitspapier über Lehrpläne für unsere Studiengänge geschrieben habe und es an eine Bekannte in Hongkong geschickt habe, meinte sie, dass das noch niemand gemacht hätte. Alle behalten ihre Didaktik und pädagogischen Ansätze für sich und niemand redet wirklich darüber.

Gibt es bestimmte filmische Konzepte, die Sie an der dffb stärken möchten? Aufgrund Ihrer Vorgeschichte sind Sie stark verankert im britischen und europäischen Autorenfilm. Wie wird sich das in Ihrer Amtszeit niederschlagen.

Es kostet ja inzwischen nichts mehr, sich zum Autorenfilm zu bekennen. Ich erinnere mich vage an eine Überlegung von Godard, dass es schlecht ist, sich als Filmemacher als etwas Besseres zu sehen als einen einfachen Arbeiter oder Handwerker. Er sagt dann auch noch, ungefähr, dass man sich als Autor leicht über den Gesetzen stehend wähnt, als König, der für andere Könige arbeitet und auch selbst einer ist. Ich stehe dem Begriff „Autor“ insofern eher skeptisch gegenüber, als er zu einer sehr verkürzten Vorstellung geworden ist: Das Individuum als alleiniger und autonomer Schöpfer. Mindestens seit Freud und Marx wissen wir, dass das Individuum nur eine Schnittmenge sehr unterschiedlicher Kräfte und Energien ist. So betrachtet, ist der Begriff des Individuums selbst beinahe schon obsolet. Ich finde, jede Auseinandersetzung darüber, wofür das Kino da ist, sollte im Café der Filmschule geführt werden unter den Studierenden und unsere Aufgabe ist es, beiden Seiten so viele Informationen und Argumente wie möglich zu liefern, um die Auseinandersetzung zu ermöglichen. Wenn irgendjemand diese Diskussion je gewinnen sollte, stünde es wirklich schlecht ums Kino.

Sie haben sich wiederholt auf das berühmte Godard-Zitat bezogen, dass es nicht darum gehe, politische Filme zu machen, sondern Filme politisch zu machen. Worauf wollen Sie damit hinaus?

Die Frage ums Politische beim Filmemachen scheint mir tatsächlich wichtig. Es kommt mir nur so vor, als würde meist sehr kurzschlüssig, ja fast propagandistisch damit verfahren. Wenn Politik in Filmen so verstanden wird, dass Sie ein politisches Thema oder eine politische Idee hernehmen und sich dann Figuren ausdenken, die als Stellvertreter von gegensätzlichen Ansichten um einen Konflikt herum politisch handeln, dann interessiert mich das, nun ja, wenig. Was aus dieser Haltung entsteht, nenne ich Illustrationsfilme. Ich nenne sie auch betrügerisch. Politisch und filmisch.

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Klaus Wildenhahn & Rolf Deppe (© Helmut Herbst)

Die Aktivitäten, mit denen die dffb im Jubiläumsjahr an die Öffentlichkeit treten wird, stehen unter der Parole „Shock Of The Real“. Welche Bedeutung hat Realismus für Sie?

Ich glaube, dass die Vorstellungen von dem, was Realismus kann und soll allgemein sehr schlicht sind. Sowohl bei den Befürwortern wie bei den Gegnern des Realismus: überspitzt formuliert, dass Realismus ein Freibrief für die Bequemlichkeit ist, sich nicht mit formalen Fragen zu beschäftigen; oder auch, dass Stilisierung eine größere Distanz zur Realität beinhaltet etc. Ich würde stattdessen gern an einen Punkt kommen, wo Überlegungen zur eigenen Position gegenüber einem Sujet selbstverständlicher Teil der Arbeit als Filmemacher sind. Ein Beispiel: Wenn Sie in ein Flüchtlingslager gehen und dort drehen, reicht es nicht aus, dass sie ‚total nah dran‘ sind, sondern sie müssen sich selber einige Fragen stellen und zu beantworten versuchen bevor Sie überhaupt die Kamera in Position bringen – denn Sie sind ja grundsätzlich hinter der Kamera, die anderen sind davor; Sie sind ein Europäer, vermutlich aus der Mittelschicht und beanspruchen, indem Sie hinter der Kamera sind, die Blickhoheit über ihr Gegenüber. All das tangiert die Art ihres Filmemachens und das gehört thematisiert.

Sie haben in Bezug auf Ihre Arbeit in der London Film School betont, dass das Curriculum dort international orientiert war. Würden Sie das Arbeitsfeld der dffb eher im internationalen Kreis der Filmschulen sehen und nicht so sehr im deutschen?

Das würde ich so nicht sagen. Ich habe noch einiges aufzuholen, was die Infrastruktur für unabhängiges Filmemachen und auch das hiesige Fernsehen angeht. Ich glaube aber, dass Produzenten, Regisseure und vielleicht auch Drehbuchautoren, sich zunehmend fragen, wie sie ihre Arbeit in einem anderen Rahmen als dem einer nationalen Kinematografie fruchtbar machen können. Die Vorstellung einer nationalen Kinematografie ist in ökonomischer Hinsicht vielleicht noch eine gute Kategorie, oder auch in Branchenpublikationen, aber sie bedeuten doch nichts mehr in Bezug auf eine Filmkultur oder für einzelne Filmemacher.

Die internationale Perspektive ist für die dffb sehr wichtig. Aber nicht international in dem Sinne, dass alle schlechtes Englisch sprechen, sondern in dem Sinne, dass wir Deutsch sprechen müssen um Englisch verstanden zu werden. Das Paradox ist im Grunde: man muss versuchen, international zu arbeiten von dort aus, wo man gerade verortet ist. Erst dann wird die eigene Existenz international deutlich.

Was bedeutet diese Internationalität für die Filme, die in den nächsten Jahren an der dffb entstehen? Reinhard Hauff hat während seiner Amtszeit als Direktor der dffb (1993 -2005) den Slogan „Low Budget, High Energy“ geprägt. Gehen Ihre Überlegungen in die gleiche Richtung?

Ich denke schon. Warum schauen wir nicht, was wir in Sachen Low Budget-Filme (oder über unabhängiges Filmemachen generell) von Bukarest zum Beispiel lernen können. Ich weiß nicht, ob Bukarest heute noch so sehr vor Energie brennt wie vor ein paar Jahren, aber selbst wenn nicht, dann gibt es etwas Ähnliches sicher bald anderswo. Ich verstehe Internationalität als die Bereitschaft, andere Einflüsse zu absorbieren und für die eigene Produktionswirklichkeit davon zu lernen.

Ich glaube in Deutschland verstehen viele nicht, dass hier etwas hochgewachsen ist, das auf Dauer schwer zu handhaben ist. Kein anderes Land in der Welt produziert fast schon standardmäßig Langfilme in Filmschulen. Eines meiner zentralen Themen ist es, dass Studierende, die ein Projekt für 600.000 EUR geplant und entwickelt haben, tatsächlich aber nur 250.000 EUR zur Verfügung haben, sich u.U. einfach vier Monate hinsetzen und das Script überarbeiten müssen, bis es als Script für einen 250.000-EUR-Film taugt.

Nahezu jeder Low Budget-Film, den ich in Deutschland sehe, ist kein Low Budget-Film, sondern eher ein Amateurfilm, weil niemand mit einem gegebenen Budget richtig umzugehen wusste. In meinen Augen muss das das Zentrum der Lehre sein: wie schreibe ich einen Film so, dass die Ästhetik zum Budget passt. In anderen Ländern ist das eine Selbstverständlichkeit. Es gibt einen ganzen Strang der Filmgeschichte, aus dem man genau das für unsere Art des Filmemachens lernen kann. Aber in Deutschland gilt jemand als unhöflich, wenn er einem Filmemacher sagt, dass er den Film, so wie er im Drehbuch angedeutet erscheint, nicht mit dem Budget drehen kann, das er nun mal zur Verfügung hat.

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