De Sica-Retro: Gesichter oder Geschichten

Nach der Sichtung und meinem Text zu Miracolo a Milano gab es bei uns in der Redaktion eine intensive Debatte, um die Frage nach den „echten Menschen“ bei De Sica. Es scheint als würden die humanistischen Geschichten und die dafür gefilmten Gesichter nicht unbedingt zueinander passen. Oder doch? Wählt De Sica Figuren aus, die individuell sind oder die einem bestimmten Klischee entsprechen? Im Folgenden möchte ich die an unserer Facebook-Pinnwand geführte Diskussion zwischen Andrey Arnold und mir unkommentiert und an unwichtigen Stellen etwas abgeschliffen abtippen und mit entsprechenden Bildern aus dem Film kombinieren. So kann für beide Meinungen nochmal eine neue Sicht auf das Thema gewonnen werden.

Andrey : Das mit den wahren Gesichtern ist auch so eine Sache: wenn De Sica einen alten, verhutzelten Mann castet, den man sofort als „alten, verhutzelten Mann“ erkennt, und diesen dann auch nichts anderes darstellen lässt als einen alten, verhutzelten Mann, dann weint man, wenn man weint, zwar mit allen alten, verhutzelten Männern dieser Welt, aber sicher nicht mehr mit DIESEM alten, verhutzelten Mann, den es eigentlich gar nicht gibt. Irgendwo steckt da die ganze Crux des Humanismus drin.

Das Wunder von Mailand

Patrick: Ich glaube, dass zum Thema alter Mann hier eine Unterscheidung getroffen werden muss. Ich finde, dass das was Andrey sagt, durchaus auf die Narration von Zavattini zutrifft, also jenes Nicht-Individuelle, das Metaphorische…aber die Gesichter für sich stehend sind individuell, sie erzählen Geschichten und sind nicht einfach nur Ideen, wie sonst so vieles in dem Film. Natürlich ist es schwer die Gesichter von ihren Geschichten zu trennen, aber wenn ich mich alleine auf das Casting beziehe, dann finde ich das durchaus bemerkenswert. Das sind (egal ob Schauspieler oder nicht) echte Menschen.

Das Wunder von Mailand

Andrey: Bemerkenswert (im Wortsinne) ist das Casting auf jeden Fall, aber ich muss dennoch ganz böse nachhaken: Was wären denn „falsche“ Menschen im Film?

Das Wunder von Mailand

Patrick: Das typische Schauspielgesicht für den alten Mann…Menschen, die mit gepflegten Gesichtern auf ungepflegt geschminkt werden, um so etwas wie Armut zu repräsentieren, Menschen, die zu genährt aussehen, Menschen, die irgendwelchen klassischen Schönheitsidealen entsprechen, Menschen, die nichts Markantes an sich haben, denen alles fehlt, an dem man sich stoßen kann, die rund und klar sind (wie der Film das ja oft ist)…ansonsten sind Gesichter zu wertvoll und zu sehr das Kino, um hier zu erklären, weshalb sie einem in der Wahrnehmung als wahr erscheinen.

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Andrey: Ich verstehe, aber das grausame Problem ist, dass jenes Gesicht, das „echt“ arm aussieht, dies eben auch nur tut, weil sich seine Züge mit denen eines medialisierten Idealbilds von Armut decken (wofür es natürlich nichts kann). Und die wirklich „wahren“ Gesichter des Kinos wären für mich jene, die weder in die eine noch in die andere Kategorie passen. Den alten, verhutzelten Mann unter Anführungszeichen sollte man indes besser zur Hauptfigur eines Films machen, oder von mir aus so inszenieren, wie es Albert Serra mit seinen Laien macht.

De Sica

Patrick: Aber Albert Serra nimmt ja nicht Personen, die das spielen, was sie sind (ist auch schwer bei den Heiligen 3 Königen, Casanova, Dracula und Don Quixote…)…stattdessen verweigert er einfach das Schauspiel mit interessanten Körpern und Gesichtern (eine grobe Vereinfachung) De Sica hat in seiner neorealistischen Phase oft Laien genommen aus dem jeweiligen Milieu…Ich gebe dir nicht recht, da ich glaube, dass De Sica insbesondere dadurch gewinnt, dass bei ihm bis in die kleinste Nebenrolle das Milieu stimmt, der Gestus, alles. Was daran falsch oder unwahr sein könnte, verstehe ich nicht. Nur weil die Darstellung einem Klischee entspricht, muss man sie nicht brechen…und ich glaube nicht mal, dass die Gesichter überhaupt einem Klischee entsprechen können…nur die Geschichten können es und sie sind ein Klischee, das 1951 sicher noch keines war. Die Inszenierung eines Gesichts scheint mir überdies etwas anderes zu sein als seine Auswahl.

De Sica Retrospektive

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Andrey: Bei Serra lobe ich genau das: Dass die Menschen nicht das spielen, was sie sind. Und was die Unwahrheit einer Milieuzeichnung angeht: In jedem Milieu finden sich allerlei verschiedene Gesichter, würde ich meinen, und wenn man da gezielt die „typischen“ – die Mehrheit – herausfiltert, um sein Porträt mit dem Klischee zur Deckung zu bringen, mag das gut gemeint sein im Sinne von Authentizität, und womöglich kann man sogar etwas darauf aufbauen, aber letztlich spielt man dabei immer dem Klischee in die Hände, man nobilitiert es sogar, indem man es im Namen eines rechtschaffenen Realismus zur Wahrheit erklärt. Es ist gerade die „Stimmigkeit“, die man anprangern kann. Aber vielleicht hast du recht, wenn du sagst, dass es am Ende nur um die Geschichten geht, in die die Gesichter eingebettet sind, vielleicht ist das der Knackpunkt.

Das Wunder von Mailand

 

Patrick: Aber so stimmig ist es ja nicht, wenn weniger Gedanken und mehr Realismus in die Auswahl eines Darstellers gehen? Ist es nicht etwas Wertvolles, wenn ein Filmemacher sich entscheidet die Realität, das Dokument, in seine Illusionen zu lassen? Und selbst wenn es das nicht ist, ist das dann etwas Falsches oder Uninteressantes? Serra ist ja kein Vergleich, weil der keinen zeitgenössischen, demokratischen Drang in seinen Film hat…dieses: Wir geben den „normalen“ Menschen eine Stimme im Kino, das hat doch etwas schönes…und Serra besetzt ja nach Aussehen, also doch nach genau denselben Prinzipien…ah, dieser Mann sieht aus wie Casanova, Peranson sieht aus wie Joseph usw. Dann bricht er sie in der Darstellung, er will das Andere, das Ungewöhnliche, das Unschuldige, das Unreflektierte, Unbemerkte…aber das hat nichts mehr mit seinem Casting zu tun. Ich glaube es ist eher dein zweites Problem, also jenes der Narration und das Absurde an unserer Diskussion ist dann, dass ich derselben Meinung bin und das hier und im Text so formuliert habe. Ich verstehe dieses „Typische“ anhand der Inszenierung und Narration, nicht aber anhand der Gesichter, denn ich wüsste nicht, was dort typisch ist oder war, ich weiß überhaupt gar nicht, was ein typischer Mensch ist. Ich kann nur in ein Gesicht sehen und diesem Gesicht glauben oder nicht. Mehr kann ich nicht. Im Fall von Miracolo a Milano glaube ich den Gesichtern mehr als ihren Geschichten, ich lese sie- wenn du magst- gegen den Strom. Ja, es gibt idealisierte Bilder, von den Medien vorgekaute, aber das kann ich einem Film nur schwer vorwerfen.

De Sica Miracolo

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Andrey: Aber wenn du nicht weißt, was ein „typischer“ Mensch ist, warum glaubst du dann einem Gesicht und einem anderen nicht? Woran erkennst du den Realismus? Das ist wie Stephen Colbert, wenn er ironisch behauptet: „I don’t see race. People tell me I’m white and I believe them.“ Es gibt doch immer soziale und politische Determinanten, die unsere Wahrnehmung mitbestimmen, und gerade wenn es um die Herstellung von Normalität geht, werden diese besonders wirksam. Wie sieht das Gesicht aus, dem du – ganz unabhängig von Geschichte, Inszenierung, Herrichtung – nicht glaubst? Ist es ein falsches Lächeln, was du meinst?

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De Sica

Patrick: Ich kann eine typische Darstellung erkennen, nicht aber das typische Gesicht. Ich kann filmische Methoden zur Herstellung von Realismus erkennen, nicht aber die Realität. Ich kann erkennen, wenn jemand Bruchstellen in seiner Fiktion zulässt, um die Realität hereinzulassen ohne, dass ich mich anmaßen würde zu wissen, was die Realität ist. Ich behaupte, dass De Sica für diesen Film Darsteller gefunden hat, die in ihren Körpern/Gesichtern von individuellen Geschichten erzählen, die vom Film so nicht benutzt werden, die aber durch das Casting schon in den Film Einlass gefunden haben und die ich dadurch wahrnehmen kann. Ich nehme Gesichter oft stärker wahr, als Geschichten im Kino, daher ist mir dieser Punkt wichtig. Zu den falschen Gesichtern habe ich schon einiges gesagt weiter oben. Bresson hat dazu mehr und besseres gesagt, Serra auch. Ich gebe dir aber insofern Recht, dass bei De Sica manche Nebenrolle etwas zu forciert gecastet wurde. Trotzdem ist ein solches Casting in einem Märchen interessant.

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  93. Sorry for the substantial overview, still I’m rather loving the refreshing Zune, and be expecting this, as very well as the high quality evaluations some other individuals include prepared, will aid on your own choose if it’s the directly selection for by yourself.

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  98. I’ll equipment this research towards 2 types of people in america: current Zune householders who are looking at an upgrade, and persons striving in direction of make your mind up amongst a Zune and an iPod. (There are other avid gamers great importance thinking of out there, like the Sony Walkman X, but I assume this delivers your self sufficient info in direction of deliver an knowledgeable option of the Zune vs gamers other than the iPod line as very well.)

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  104. Sorry for the large analyze, still I’m really loving the new Zune, and be expecting this, as perfectly as the very good testimonials some other human beings have penned, will aid yourself decide if it’s the right decision for yourself.

  105. I will machines this evaluation in the direction of 2 designs of Those people: present-day Zune householders who are considering an upgrade, and men and women attempting to choose among a Zune and an iPod. (There are other players relevance looking at out there, which include the Sony Walkman X, however I expect this features by yourself plenty of facts in the direction of make an aware decision of the Zune vs avid gamers other than the iPod line as properly.)

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  107. The Zune concentrates upon currently being a Portable Media Player. Not a world-wide-web browser. Not a recreation machine. Perhaps in just the long term it’ll do even superior in those areas, yet for previously it truly is a remarkable route to organize and hear in the direction of your music and videos, and is without peer inside that respect. The iPod’s advantages are its website checking out and apps. If people reliable added compelling, maybe it is your great determination.

  108. 715064 158137I should admit that this really is 1 great insight. It surely gives a company the opportunity to get in on the ground floor and actually take part in creating something particular and tailored to their needs. 820661

  109. Arms down, Apple’s application retailer wins through a mile. It is a significant determination of all sorts of programs vs a alternatively unhappy preference of a handful for Zune. Microsoft incorporates packages, primarily inside the realm of video games, but I’m not of course I might need in direction of wager upon the future if this characteristic is considerable in the direction of your self. The iPod is a a lot greater conclusion inside of that situation.

  110. Zune and iPod: Greatest americans review the Zune toward the Contact, nonetheless after watching how thin and surprisingly reduced and light-weight it is, I take into account it toward be a really one of a kind hybrid that brings together qualities of possibly the Touch and the Nano. It really is Pretty colourful and lovely OLED display is a bit more compact than the touch screen, still the player by itself feels reasonably a bit scaled-down and lighter. It weighs concerning 2/3 as a lot, and is appreciably lesser within just width and top, despite the fact that getting exactly a hair thicker.

  111. The new Zune browser is amazingly constructive, still not as good as the iPod’s. It operates perfectly, but isn’t as instantaneous as Safari, and contains a clunkier interface. If you sometimes system on using the internet browser which is not an issue, but if you happen to be coming up with in direction of browse the world-wide-web alot versus your PMP then the iPod’s larger exhibit and superior browser may perhaps be essential.

  112. I haven’t checked in here for a while because I thought it was getting boring, but the last several posts are good quality so I guess I’ll add you back to my daily bloglist. You deserve it my friend 🙂

  113. Palms down, Apple’s application store wins by means of a mile. It is a huge variety of all forms of apps vs a fairly disappointed determination of a handful for Zune. Microsoft is made up of packages, especially in just the realm of video games, but I’m not indeed I might need to have in direction of guess upon the long term if this portion is important towards your self. The iPod is a a lot superior selection within that circumstance.

  114. Nice read, I just passed this onto a friend who was doing a little research on that. And he just bought me lunch since I found it for him smile Thus let me rephrase that: Thank you for lunch!

  115. I am going to tools this assessment toward 2 models of people in america: current Zune householders who are thinking of an improve, and These attempting in direction of come to a decision among a Zune and an iPod. (There are other gamers worthy of thinking of out there, which include the Sony Walkman X, nonetheless I anticipate this delivers by yourself enough information and facts toward make an knowledgeable conclusion of the Zune vs avid gamers other than the iPod line as perfectly.)

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  119. This is getting to be a bit even further subjective, nevertheless I a lot want the Zune Sector. The interface is colorful, incorporates additional flair, and some interesting characteristics together with ‚Mixview‘ that let on your own all of a sudden check out identical albums, music, or other users related in the direction of what you happen to be listening toward. Clicking on 1 of individuals will centre on that products, and another set of „neighbors“ will occur into look at, allowing for you toward navigate about investigating through equivalent artists, tunes, or customers. Speaking of people, the Zune „Social“ is way too excellent enjoyment, permitting yourself come across many others with shared choices and starting to be close friends with them. By yourself then can hear in the direction of a playlist created dependent upon an amalgamation of what all your friends are listening in the direction of, which is far too exciting. Those people apprehensive with privateness will be relieved in direction of recognize you can stay clear of the public from looking at your particular person listening habits if you hence make your mind up.

  120. The Zune concentrates on currently being a Moveable Media Player. Not a web browser. Not a sport machine. Maybe inside of the long term it will do even better within these areas, however for previously it is really a extraordinary way toward prepare and hear toward your songs and flicks, and is devoid of peer inside that respect. The iPod’s advantages are its internet checking out and programs. If those people stable even further persuasive, maybe it is your great preference.

  121. One thing is that when you’re searching for a education loan you may find that you’ll want a co-signer. There are many circumstances where this is true because you could find that you do not have a past credit history so the financial institution will require that you’ve got someone cosign the money for you. Interesting post.

  122. Apple now has Rhapsody as an app, which is a perfect get started, yet it is at present hampered via the inability to retail outlet regionally upon your iPod, and is made up of a dismal 64kbps little bit cost. If this adjustments, then it will relatively negate this ease for the Zune, but the 10 audio per thirty day period will however be a huge plus in Zune Pass‘ desire.

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